Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
Some questions:
Why are people so worried about how GM's spend 6 months of their lives (average length of an entire season here)? I don't believe the quality of the league has been affected by a team tanking (yet, at least).
This engine and our league history has proven that you need stars to win a championship - so why negate one avenue of acquiring one? It's not like it has been very effective, the drafts arguably aren't a good place for finding a superstar so far.
Why is this a big issue to begin with?
With the above said, I'm not in favor of my odds increasing/decreasing based on what happened 2 seasons ago or even weighing into my lottery odds at any rate. This league endures so much team change over the course of one season that there is bound to be issues that arise from this.
If you want to end the non-issue that apparently is an issue, give all non-playoff teams equal odds - period. Otherwise, I wouldn't fix what is not broken.
Why are people so worried about how GM's spend 6 months of their lives (average length of an entire season here)? I don't believe the quality of the league has been affected by a team tanking (yet, at least).
This engine and our league history has proven that you need stars to win a championship - so why negate one avenue of acquiring one? It's not like it has been very effective, the drafts arguably aren't a good place for finding a superstar so far.
Why is this a big issue to begin with?
With the above said, I'm not in favor of my odds increasing/decreasing based on what happened 2 seasons ago or even weighing into my lottery odds at any rate. This league endures so much team change over the course of one season that there is bound to be issues that arise from this.
If you want to end the non-issue that apparently is an issue, give all non-playoff teams equal odds - period. Otherwise, I wouldn't fix what is not broken.
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
I don't get the point, Andrew.
The league hasn't been affected by tanking but one day it will. You gotta feel bad for teams like OKC and ATL and GSW who are trying to win as much as they can even though they don't have much talent to play with.
And drafts, in this engine, might be the only way to find a superstar. Either you draft multiple high caliber young talent to trade for a superstar or find yourself one via draft. Via FA its almost impossible to pry a superstar away from his mother team and well, nobody is trading a superstar unless it's for top young talent.. That, again, you only acquire via draft.
Giving non playoff teams equal odds won't solve the matter, IMO. A team can always tank by not making the playoffs but bumping it's total wins by as much as possible to attract FAs. This way a tanking team gets the best of both worlds. Draft exists to help BAD (I mean, teams without talent to compete) franchises find players to build their future around. It's not meant for teams with already good enough talent to advance to postseason to find yet another superstar because well, they cannot win it all with their current talent level.
At least if you take into account what happened 2 seasons ago, well.. If you want to tank, go ahead, but you have to do it at least 3 years in a row. Nobody is doing it deliberately, it's like wasting all the fun that comes with playing in sim leagues.
The league hasn't been affected by tanking but one day it will. You gotta feel bad for teams like OKC and ATL and GSW who are trying to win as much as they can even though they don't have much talent to play with.
And drafts, in this engine, might be the only way to find a superstar. Either you draft multiple high caliber young talent to trade for a superstar or find yourself one via draft. Via FA its almost impossible to pry a superstar away from his mother team and well, nobody is trading a superstar unless it's for top young talent.. That, again, you only acquire via draft.
Giving non playoff teams equal odds won't solve the matter, IMO. A team can always tank by not making the playoffs but bumping it's total wins by as much as possible to attract FAs. This way a tanking team gets the best of both worlds. Draft exists to help BAD (I mean, teams without talent to compete) franchises find players to build their future around. It's not meant for teams with already good enough talent to advance to postseason to find yet another superstar because well, they cannot win it all with their current talent level.
At least if you take into account what happened 2 seasons ago, well.. If you want to tank, go ahead, but you have to do it at least 3 years in a row. Nobody is doing it deliberately, it's like wasting all the fun that comes with playing in sim leagues.
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
Wasting fun for who? Are you not having fun because you think I wasn't having fun tanking two seasons ago for Embiid? I mean, maybe some people enjoy the process of the draft from picking in the top. The negotiations between half the league and I for that pick was one of the most fun times I've experienced from a sim league.
Just because you have fun winning 60 and still losing at the end doesn't mean others have to follow the same path. It's a sim league after all - we all chose to build differently.
There hasn't been a superstar yet to emerge from these drafts. Parker is the closest thing and it still remains to be seen if he will have the impact you'd want from your superstar.
Just because you have fun winning 60 and still losing at the end doesn't mean others have to follow the same path. It's a sim league after all - we all chose to build differently.
There hasn't been a superstar yet to emerge from these drafts. Parker is the closest thing and it still remains to be seen if he will have the impact you'd want from your superstar.
- Marcos_Beck
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
I think it's funny to have #1 as well. That does not mean you can deliberate tank to get the #1. That's not allowed both in CSL and NBA. It's not allowed in any major league or even minor leagues in every sport that uses draft as youth recruitment.
You can build it the way you want. I don't care. I don't care if you don't want to win 60+ and lose at the end. Do whatever you want, just don't tank. That's not allowed. And we know that there were some teams using lineups and strategies to tank last season. You don't have to be a genius to understand that people aren't using their best, aren't playing up to what they can because they want to lose games.
You can build it the way you want. I don't care. I don't care if you don't want to win 60+ and lose at the end. Do whatever you want, just don't tank. That's not allowed. And we know that there were some teams using lineups and strategies to tank last season. You don't have to be a genius to understand that people aren't using their best, aren't playing up to what they can because they want to lose games.
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- NuggOlesk
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
At the end of every season, we vote for people who tanked. We collect tanking moves in season, "tankers" have rights to write the real story, if they feel they where not tanking by that move.
Teams with most collected tank moves will lose as many spots. If 10 tank moves but they have 7th pick, then they are 14th pick.
Then there is no reason to tank. And if someone tanks, but nobody understands it, then no rule change helps against him.
Teams with most collected tank moves will lose as many spots. If 10 tank moves but they have 7th pick, then they are 14th pick.
Then there is no reason to tank. And if someone tanks, but nobody understands it, then no rule change helps against him.
- Marcos_Beck
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
Too subjective I think. How to keep track of every "tanking move" from a team? Impossible.NuggOlesk wrote:At the end of every season, we vote for people who tanked. We collect tanking moves in season, "tankers" have rights to write the real story, if they feel they where not tanking by that move.
Teams with most collected tank moves will lose as many spots. If 10 tank moves but they have 7th pick, then they are 14th pick.
Then there is no reason to tank. And if someone tanks, but nobody understands it, then no rule change helps against him.
Even harder to defend yourself from tanking moves when you have no intention of tanking, if that's the case. I mean, most of the people won't understand you anyway.
I'd love to see something sustained by maths and formulas.
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
I like the idea of weighing the odds based on the last three seasons of records. This way if you do plan on tanking it's going to take potentially three years to really "benefit" from it. That's a long time to commit to a tanking mentality.
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
So Kyrie tears his ACL midway this season, which effectively ruins two seasons for you and you end up with the worst record in the league both times. Wouldn't you like to receive compensation for enduring such an injury and a wasted season (or two) versus Kyrie returning and then you win your division in year 3 and it lessens your high draft pick in year three?Rizzo wrote:I like the idea of weighing the odds based on the last three seasons of records. This way if you do plan on tanking it's going to take potentially three years to really "benefit" from it. That's a long time to commit to a tanking mentality.
This is just one example of why weighing seasons will not work.
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
Yeah the 3 season stuff has too many holes.
New GM's
Then like a team with a superstar has 2 good season, the star is going to FA or retires then. Then the team don't tank, but hey you had 2 good seasons, pick 14th! Have a nice 2 season to suck
New GM's
Then like a team with a superstar has 2 good season, the star is going to FA or retires then. Then the team don't tank, but hey you had 2 good seasons, pick 14th! Have a nice 2 season to suck
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
Firstly, EVERYONE overrates the draft. Just do. Psychologically people think they're gonna hit these home runs. But it's more than that, isn't it? It's developing the players the right way, working on their preferences and then putting them in a position to succeed.
Having a high draft pick just means you have a higher probability of doing half of the first part of that (the other half is luck).
It's a shame too - there are some special rookies floating around out there and sucking wind due to idiot GMs wasting their potential. Having a top pick means relatively little in the context of having a competitive team, I think.
Having a high draft pick just means you have a higher probability of doing half of the first part of that (the other half is luck).
It's a shame too - there are some special rookies floating around out there and sucking wind due to idiot GMs wasting their potential. Having a top pick means relatively little in the context of having a competitive team, I think.
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
Isnt that the case in the nba too? Why expect any different here?Sun Scorched wrote:Firstly, EVERYONE overrates the draft. Just do. Psychologically people think they're gonna hit these home runs. But it's more than that, isn't it? It's developing the players the right way, working on their preferences and then putting them in a position to succeed.
Having a high draft pick just means you have a higher probability of doing half of the first part of that (the other half is luck).
It's a shame too - there are some special rookies floating around out there and sucking wind due to idiot GMs wasting their potential. Having a top pick means relatively little in the context of having a competitive team, I think.
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
Cousins never gets traded for #1 in the NBA - here, imho, it makes sense. It's definitely different. Here picks (and the idea of a home run) are significantly more valuable than established players. Do you not think so?OneNole wrote:Isnt that the case in the nba too? Why expect any different here?Sun Scorched wrote:Firstly, EVERYONE overrates the draft. Just do. Psychologically people think they're gonna hit these home runs. But it's more than that, isn't it? It's developing the players the right way, working on their preferences and then putting them in a position to succeed.
Having a high draft pick just means you have a higher probability of doing half of the first part of that (the other half is luck).
It's a shame too - there are some special rookies floating around out there and sucking wind due to idiot GMs wasting their potential. Having a top pick means relatively little in the context of having a competitive team, I think.
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
I was referring more to the fact about special rookies sucking wind.
But i definitely think the kings would trade cousins for #1 but philly would not, nor do i think cousins would go for number #1 here if the draft waa special
But i definitely think the kings would trade cousins for #1 but philly would not, nor do i think cousins would go for number #1 here if the draft waa special
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
I'm a bigger fan of something along the lines of what Tim proposed. No one is going to tank if you've got the same odds at a top pick as the other lottery teams. Unfortunately, that's the only way you'll stop tanking completely.
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
When I said taking into account multiple seasons, from what I'm reading, it sounds like you guys think it'll have a massive impact. Guy rips ACL, odds ruined or needing to suck for 3 seasons.
It can be as simple as adjusting the current lottery odds based on prior history. Slightly increasing the odds for a team who has been down for so long, slightly for a team pressing to make finals, etc. If a team is still committed to tanking for a long time, they can still do that. If they were to finish last 3 seasons in a row, they still get good odds on season one, maybe normal lottery odds three following and increased in season 3.
It's not to stop the bad luck team from entering and getting rewarded. Scouting is probably more important in that regard anyway but if a team was bad for 3 seasons, it just might help determine if they truly suck or are tanking.
Would be best done with formulas to set a constant. Maybe it'll be easier to explain if I show a quick example?
It can be as simple as adjusting the current lottery odds based on prior history. Slightly increasing the odds for a team who has been down for so long, slightly for a team pressing to make finals, etc. If a team is still committed to tanking for a long time, they can still do that. If they were to finish last 3 seasons in a row, they still get good odds on season one, maybe normal lottery odds three following and increased in season 3.
It's not to stop the bad luck team from entering and getting rewarded. Scouting is probably more important in that regard anyway but if a team was bad for 3 seasons, it just might help determine if they truly suck or are tanking.
Would be best done with formulas to set a constant. Maybe it'll be easier to explain if I show a quick example?
Last edited by bt on Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
Definitely don't like equal odds though. Then you'll get teams quite happy to finish 9th, get an equal chance at the lottery and head into FA with a much better chance than those teams lower.
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matisse thybulle | justin james
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
I honestly can't decide how I think this will impact trades involving draft picks though. If too complicated, then why trade for a pick from a team you hope will be shitty? It's not worth anything.
Kind of hurts teams looking to trade the picks for win now pieces.
Kind of hurts teams looking to trade the picks for win now pieces.
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
The equal odds matter takes away the most important aspect of the draft: helping bad teams get better, build a future. If a 50-30 team that misses the playoffs has the same odds as a 10-72 team, there's no point in doing a draft then. Let's just release all rookies to FA.
I like what bt said and I was thinking about that as well. I'd say we build some formula together here. Let's say, number of wins. Teams with less wins get highest odds at lottery. But with one thing different:
- Current season: 60%
- Previous season: 30%
- Previous-previous season: 10%
My English isn't that good but I think everyone got the point.
So if a team won 23 games at current season, multiply it by .6
Than take his previous season's record (let's say, 43 wins) and multiply it by .3
Record from two seasons prior to current (say he went to ECF with a 60w record) and multiply it by .1
So this team would have a number of wins of 13.8 + 12.9 + 6 = 32.7. If you jump from 23 wins to 32.7 wins, probably you are jumping from 5th highest odds to 9th highest odds or something like that. Is that a super high jump considering that team was VERY successful in season 1, still successful in season 2 and was only the 5th worst team at season 3?
I think that is a fair price to pay if anyone is up to it and it would for sure prevent tanking.
Teams who deserve the #1 pick will for sure suck a season prior to current. So that means he sucked bigtime for 90% of the record taken into account. Which would still give him highest odds probably.
Forgot to mention: this would only apply for lottery teams.
I like what bt said and I was thinking about that as well. I'd say we build some formula together here. Let's say, number of wins. Teams with less wins get highest odds at lottery. But with one thing different:
- Current season: 60%
- Previous season: 30%
- Previous-previous season: 10%
My English isn't that good but I think everyone got the point.
So if a team won 23 games at current season, multiply it by .6
Than take his previous season's record (let's say, 43 wins) and multiply it by .3
Record from two seasons prior to current (say he went to ECF with a 60w record) and multiply it by .1
So this team would have a number of wins of 13.8 + 12.9 + 6 = 32.7. If you jump from 23 wins to 32.7 wins, probably you are jumping from 5th highest odds to 9th highest odds or something like that. Is that a super high jump considering that team was VERY successful in season 1, still successful in season 2 and was only the 5th worst team at season 3?
I think that is a fair price to pay if anyone is up to it and it would for sure prevent tanking.
Teams who deserve the #1 pick will for sure suck a season prior to current. So that means he sucked bigtime for 90% of the record taken into account. Which would still give him highest odds probably.
Forgot to mention: this would only apply for lottery teams.
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
Then there is a team who tanked: 12 win, tanked again, 14 wins, now playes fair 40 wins.
1,2+4,2+24=29,4 , so he still gets a prize. Still tanker only needs 2 season to tank, 3rd mis POs then good pick and probable FA money.
But if a good team loses his FA, next season is in the middle and loses some good players to retirement, so 3rd season starts with a bad team. Oki, he finds 1-2 good players, but can not get a good FA, he will try to win, but has a bad team, gets that 23 wins, but he was a good team last 2 seasons, so he is punished for it?
We wouldn't chance much for tankers, but good GMs get punished
1,2+4,2+24=29,4 , so he still gets a prize. Still tanker only needs 2 season to tank, 3rd mis POs then good pick and probable FA money.
But if a good team loses his FA, next season is in the middle and loses some good players to retirement, so 3rd season starts with a bad team. Oki, he finds 1-2 good players, but can not get a good FA, he will try to win, but has a bad team, gets that 23 wins, but he was a good team last 2 seasons, so he is punished for it?
We wouldn't chance much for tankers, but good GMs get punished
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Re: Anti-Tanking / New Lottery System
If a tanker tanks two seasons to get one good draft pick, I'm good with that. Nobody is tanking two seasons. Plus current season record always worth more than previous seasons. 29W does not guarantee you the first pick, actually you get what, 5th higher odds at best.NuggOlesk wrote:Then there is a team who tanked: 12 win, tanked again, 14 wins, now playes fair 40 wins.
1,2+4,2+24=29,4 , so he still gets a prize. Still tanker only needs 2 season to tank, 3rd mis POs then good pick and probable FA money.
But if a good team loses his FA, next season is in the middle and loses some good players to retirement, so 3rd season starts with a bad team. Oki, he finds 1-2 good players, but can not get a good FA, he will try to win, but has a bad team, gets that 23 wins, but he was a good team last 2 seasons, so he is punished for it?
We wouldn't chance much for tankers, but good GMs get punished
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#1 D.Rose #11 J.Holiday #21 J.Butler #42 A.Horford #13 J.Noah
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