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RAPTOR++ / 2019-2020 CSL Season Ep.1

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GreenBear
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Re: RAPTOR++ / 2019-2020 CSL Season Ep.1

Post by GreenBear »

Chilikonkarne wrote:
bt wrote:Like reading these but I wish there was a way for you to incorporate defense somehow.
Defense is incorporated. Porter is scoring 10 less points than Jabari but still ranked ahead.
The only defensive stats not considered (because not available from HTLM) are STP%, PA/SF and TOFC

But ratings like DEF, STL and BLK + stats STL/MIN and BLK/MIN are strongly involved in the formula
While I don't doubt that the defensive ratings and stats are involved somewhat, I'm with bt on this one and I have to respectfully question how strongly involved they are. If you look at who is leading most of the categories, it's pretty obvious that it's an offensive driven ratings system. Just as an example (and there are others), let's look at Okaro. I mean Okaro is having another potential DPOY type season: 2.0 stls, 1.7 blks, 3.0 TOFC, 100% STP% (on 182 drives!), 0.69 PA/SF (!!!). And he easily has the best defensive ratings in the game for SFs. He's also having a career year offensively with over 13 points and 54.2% FG% (which is incredible for a guy that doesn't play in the front court). Yet he barely cracks the top 10 at his position.

Again, I'm not saying that you don't incorporate these stats and ratings into the system at all. And I absolutely respect that a lot of work goes into these ratings (and I know I probably couldn't come up with a better system). I'm just saying that it's a system that is slanted towards offensive ratings/stats.

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Re: RAPTOR++ / 2019-2020 CSL Season Ep.1

Post by WillyJakkz »

It seems that no matter what criteria is used there will always be criticism. Why can't this article and research be accepted for what was put into it and if someone else wants to spend their time doing rankings or ratings based on advanced analytics then they should do one and I'll gladly read that as well.

I personally love this series myself even if Drummond is at #1 over Cousins :)

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MAGIC:
PG L Ball | SG A Edwards | SF K Middleton |
PF W Kessler | C M Williams

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Re: RAPTOR++ / 2019-2020 CSL Season Ep.1

Post by OneNole »

GreenBear wrote:
Chilikonkarne wrote:
bt wrote:Like reading these but I wish there was a way for you to incorporate defense somehow.
Defense is incorporated. Porter is scoring 10 less points than Jabari but still ranked ahead.
The only defensive stats not considered (because not available from HTLM) are STP%, PA/SF and TOFC

But ratings like DEF, STL and BLK + stats STL/MIN and BLK/MIN are strongly involved in the formula
While I don't doubt that the defensive ratings and stats are involved somewhat, I'm with bt on this one and I have to respectfully question how strongly involved they are. If you look at who is leading most of the categories, it's pretty obvious that it's an offensive driven ratings system. Just as an example (and there are others), let's look at Okaro. I mean Okaro is having another potential DPOY type season: 2.0 stls, 1.7 blks, 3.0 TOFC, 100% STP% (on 182 drives!), 0.69 PA/SF (!!!). And he easily has the best defensive ratings in the game for SFs. He's also having a career year offensively with over 13 points and 54.2% FG% (which is incredible for a guy that doesn't play in the front court). Yet he barely cracks the top 10 at his position.

Again, I'm not saying that you don't incorporate these stats and ratings into the system at all. And I absolutely respect that a lot of work goes into these ratings (and I know I probably couldn't come up with a better system). I'm just saying that it's a system that is slanted towards offensive ratings/stats.
It just goes to show just how much better Lebron is than Okaro
FINALLY a logical HC Rule our work is done

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Re: RAPTOR++ / 2019-2020 CSL Season Ep.1

Post by Stockton12 »

Good to see dragic and Washburn get mentions

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Re: RAPTOR++ / 2019-2020 CSL Season Ep.1

Post by Sun Scorched »

GreenBear wrote:
Chilikonkarne wrote:
bt wrote:Like reading these but I wish there was a way for you to incorporate defense somehow.
Defense is incorporated. Porter is scoring 10 less points than Jabari but still ranked ahead.
The only defensive stats not considered (because not available from HTLM) are STP%, PA/SF and TOFC

But ratings like DEF, STL and BLK + stats STL/MIN and BLK/MIN are strongly involved in the formula
While I don't doubt that the defensive ratings and stats are involved somewhat, I'm with bt on this one and I have to respectfully question how strongly involved they are. If you look at who is leading most of the categories, it's pretty obvious that it's an offensive driven ratings system. Just as an example (and there are others), let's look at Okaro. I mean Okaro is having another potential DPOY type season: 2.0 stls, 1.7 blks, 3.0 TOFC, 100% STP% (on 182 drives!), 0.69 PA/SF (!!!). And he easily has the best defensive ratings in the game for SFs. He's also having a career year offensively with over 13 points and 54.2% FG% (which is incredible for a guy that doesn't play in the front court). Yet he barely cracks the top 10 at his position.

Again, I'm not saying that you don't incorporate these stats and ratings into the system at all. And I absolutely respect that a lot of work goes into these ratings (and I know I probably couldn't come up with a better system). I'm just saying that it's a system that is slanted towards offensive ratings/stats.
I'm not going to get into Harden playing SF, but whatever....

Honestly, what this tells me is that Okaro is a whopping 1.7 "eval" points behind #5th place Middleton. That's nothing. I think you're getting frustrated with what seems to be a question of usage, more than anything. Literally everyone in front of Okaro simply takes more shots and - in fairness - do so on pretty nice efficiency.

To me, LeBron and Porter are the clear top two at this position. After that, it becomes more personal preference. But Parker (49%), Middleton (51%), Leonard (48%), Turner (46%) and Carmelo (47%) are all posting really nice %'s from the wing. I love Okaro, but I think it's splitting hairs to complain about his 9th place finish here when he's only clearly better (IMO) than Turner and Carmelo. I think a case can be made both ways for the order of Parker, Middleton, Leonard and Okaro - and they all feel like they have pretty even value to me.

WHATEVER
#1 - James Harden - Houston_Rockets : 32.4pts, 49%, 4ast, 7.1rbd, 1.6stl, 0.3blk in 34min / EVAL: 95.3

CLEAR TOP TWO
#2 - Lebron James - Dallas_Mavericks : 20.1pts, 46%, 4.6ast, 5.4rbd, 1.1stl, 0.4blk in 32min / EVAL: 87
#3 - Otto Porter - Sacramento_Kings : 15.2pts, 48%, 2.1ast, 5.8rbd, 2stl, 1blk in 29.9min / EVAL: 84.2

THE INTERCHANGABLE FOUR
#4 - Jabari Parker - Philadelphia_Sixers : 25.7pts, 49%, 1.1ast, 5.3rbd, 0.9stl, 0.3blk in 35.5min / EVAL: 82.9
#5 - Khris Middleton - Memphis_Grizzlies : 21.7pts, 51%, 3.3ast, 3rbd, 1.2stl, 0.1blk in 31.9min / EVAL: 80.9
#6 - Kawhi Leonard - Toronto_Raptors : 20pts, 48%, 1.7ast, 5.7rbd, 2stl, 1blk in 35.7min / EVAL: 80.9
#9 - Okaro White - Phoenix_Suns : 13.3pts, 54%, 1.6ast, 5.2rbd, 2stl, 1.7blk in 32.3min / EVAL: 79.2

MAYBE THE ONLY TOP 10 SFs WHITE IS CLEARLY BETTER THAN
#7 - Evan Turner - Los_Angeles_Clippers : 18.4pts, 46%, 3.3ast, 5rbd, 1.3stl, 0.5blk in 30.2min / EVAL: 80.7
#8 - Carmelo Anthony - Milwaukee_Bucks : 24.4pts, 47%, 0.8ast, 5.2rbd, 0.7stl, 0.3blk in 31.3min / EVAL: 79.7
#10 - Andrew Wiggins - Charlotte_Hornets : 22.1pts, 46%, 1.4ast, 4.9rbd, 1.6stl, 1.6blk in 36.8min / EVAL: 78.1

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Re: RAPTOR++ / 2019-2020 CSL Season Ep.1

Post by Chilikonkarne »

There were a bug in the PG formula so I updated the PG and Rookie rating

Sorry Brett, but Bledsoe took over Wall.
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2019-2020 : 57-25 - (2nd round, Atlantic Division Champion)

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Re: RAPTOR++ / 2019-2020 CSL Season Ep.1

Post by Chilikonkarne »

GreenBear wrote:
Chilikonkarne wrote:
bt wrote:Like reading these but I wish there was a way for you to incorporate defense somehow.
Defense is incorporated. Porter is scoring 10 less points than Jabari but still ranked ahead.
The only defensive stats not considered (because not available from HTLM) are STP%, PA/SF and TOFC

But ratings like DEF, STL and BLK + stats STL/MIN and BLK/MIN are strongly involved in the formula
While I don't doubt that the defensive ratings and stats are involved somewhat, I'm with bt on this one and I have to respectfully question how strongly involved they are. If you look at who is leading most of the categories, it's pretty obvious that it's an offensive driven ratings system. Just as an example (and there are others), let's look at Okaro. I mean Okaro is having another potential DPOY type season: 2.0 stls, 1.7 blks, 3.0 TOFC, 100% STP% (on 182 drives!), 0.69 PA/SF (!!!). And he easily has the best defensive ratings in the game for SFs. He's also having a career year offensively with over 13 points and 54.2% FG% (which is incredible for a guy that doesn't play in the front court). Yet he barely cracks the top 10 at his position.

Again, I'm not saying that you don't incorporate these stats and ratings into the system at all. And I absolutely respect that a lot of work goes into these ratings (and I know I probably couldn't come up with a better system). I'm just saying that it's a system that is slanted towards offensive ratings/stats.
The formula is not perfect and it is clearly indicated at the beginning of each Raptor++.
I would apply these ratios, unfortunately there is no way to mass copy-paste them and I am not going to screen the game for 3 hours.

As per the formula, it is 70% ratings and 30% evaluation from game performance.
If you take the ratings alone for the SF (varies with the position), DEF, STL and BLK represents 25% of the potential points. So defense is an important factor in the calculation. And I could also add DRB, IQ or DI which are also valued in the formula. If the ratings was only offensive driven, a 15ppg (Porter) and a 13ppg (White) wouldn't even appear in the top 15.

I agree with the classification from SS above - Porter and White should probably get 2/3 additional points to be fully accurate. As Kawhi who is also a tremendous defender (97,5%STP, 2,8TOFC and 0,7PA/SF)
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2017-2018 : 54-28 - (Conference Final, Atlantic Division Champion)
2018-2019 : 49-33 - (2nd round)
2019-2020 : 57-25 - (2nd round, Atlantic Division Champion)

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Re: RAPTOR++ / 2019-2020 CSL Season Ep.1

Post by hardenwithnod »

I better see Yabuesele on the next rookie installment!
Big changes are coming in D.C.

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OneNole
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Re: RAPTOR++ / 2019-2020 CSL Season Ep.1

Post by OneNole »

Chilikonkarne wrote:There were a bug in the PG formula so I updated the PG and Rookie rating

Sorry Brett, but Bledsoe took over Wall.
I have completely discredited your results now!
FINALLY a logical HC Rule our work is done

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