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Transition Case Study 4: Versatile, Efficient Guard

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Dennis
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Re: Transition Case Study 4: Versatile, Efficient Guard

Post by Dennis »

No the cap wasn’t made for him only. But for players like him. You wanted me to Name only one lol.
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Re: Transition Case Study 4: Versatile, Efficient Guard

Post by andrei »

So looks like we see a pattern

You want a player to shoot then versatility is key even if that affects efficiency. The example here is somebody who is a good shooter - I wonder if the same is achieved with a good driving guard?

Also, if we have an ATB sharpshooter at only 20% ATB then I wonder if the player locations are becoming more generic. I mean, will a driving guard also be around 20% ATB for variety reasons?
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Re: Transition Case Study 4: Versatile, Efficient Guard

Post by Ramcus »

emplep7 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:48 pm
Ramcus wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:43 pm Could I get an explanation on why this guy is posting up so much, when the strengths of this player never stated a strong inside game? Both 40% post and the high post up ball action. You guys specifically said that this player is good at the mid range and atb, and average everywhere else.
Its important for guards to have diversity in their range and his potentials are average from RA (and he shot 59% there in preseason). Unless their RA and ITP is really bad, I would still send a guard into the post a good chunk unless you want them to be more of a facilitator. Keeping them heavy ATB or COR will take away from them taking shots and due to him being average to above average everywhere he's a good player to utilize in the post in addition to 60% of the time being spent outside of the post.
Understood. What I don't understand is that, if we are moving to the new engine to better emulate the NBA's modern offenses, why is it important for guards to be posting up, considering that in the modern NBA most guards aren't posting up. Sure, there are a couple in the mid post/short corner doing Kobe-lite things, but it doesn't happen as often as it's being reflected in the CSL.

Also, what do floor locations indicate? Where the player catches the ball, or where he attempts his shot?
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Re: Transition Case Study 4: Versatile, Efficient Guard

Post by Silogical »

Dennis wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:10 am No the cap wasn’t made for him only. But for players like him. You wanted me to Name only one lol.
well i asked you to name a player dominating the corner. You just named a d-leaguer or something. How many 3's did this guy take? You stick someone in the corner and give them C&S in this engine and the last engine they will be invisible.

Like you said if you want someone to not shoot stick them in the corner.

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Re: Transition Case Study 4: Versatile, Efficient Guard

Post by Silogical »

It is looking like the meta might be guards posting up.

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Re: Transition Case Study 4: Versatile, Efficient Guard

Post by hardenwithnod »

Ramcus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:42 am
emplep7 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:48 pm
Ramcus wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:43 pm Could I get an explanation on why this guy is posting up so much, when the strengths of this player never stated a strong inside game? Both 40% post and the high post up ball action. You guys specifically said that this player is good at the mid range and atb, and average everywhere else.
Its important for guards to have diversity in their range and his potentials are average from RA (and he shot 59% there in preseason). Unless their RA and ITP is really bad, I would still send a guard into the post a good chunk unless you want them to be more of a facilitator. Keeping them heavy ATB or COR will take away from them taking shots and due to him being average to above average everywhere he's a good player to utilize in the post in addition to 60% of the time being spent outside of the post.
Understood. What I don't understand is that, if we are moving to the new engine to better emulate the NBA's modern offenses, why is it important for guards to be posting up, considering that in the modern NBA most guards aren't posting up. Sure, there are a couple in the mid post/short corner doing Kobe-lite things, but it doesn't happen as often as it's being reflected in the CSL.

Also, what do floor locations indicate? Where the player catches the ball, or where he attempts his shot?
Yeah, Marcus said pretty much said what I wanted to say about this new engine. I appreciate all the hard work by the admins, but this new engine is just very weird. I know some said it's trying to emulate the modern NBA, but then you see shooters who are guards posting up again in order to create balance. Like in the modern NBA most guards don't post, or use the mid range much these days except for a few exceptions.
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Re: Transition Case Study 4: Versatile, Efficient Guard

Post by Flaming Homer »

Maybe the expectation is a bit high in this regard. If you expect a computer game to simulate real life sports you have a good chance to be disappointed.

Especially if it is still and old engine as base and not to forget CSL roster created for this older versions. Not to say that the default roster looks too much better.
Wolverine seemed to lessened the small player in the post tendency from the last 3 engines, that's a plus for me. Will there be other weaknesses in other areas, very likely.

I like the challenge to see if and how I can make my roster work but it will take time for all of us to figure out what works for our teams.

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Re: Transition Case Study 4: Versatile, Efficient Guard

Post by Dennis »

Only thing I don’t like, and I agree here with Marcus and Andrei, is that we get further and further away from reallife nba with every newer engine. Right now we are doomed to let guards post up and play mostly in the post to be able to get them shooting and reach like 44% (which is elite in the new engine).

I like all the work, but honestly? Keeping dds19, having a cap for post location per position would have been the better option. Just looked at my offline file and in 19 it worked to let player be ATB and instruct them to drive as it should work. (FG% and shot attemptswise)

Right now we are instead all looking for away to game the engine to be able to get guards above 40% instead of trying to build a team similar to NBA styles. I know we will be never close, no one expects it, but the change was a big step further away.
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Re: Transition Case Study 4: Versatile, Efficient Guard

Post by KW »

emplep7 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:00 pm
hardenwithnod wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:57 pm Another question is, does drive + pass do much here, I feel like the amount of shots a guy take doesn't really get affected by it. Not sure if it does much compared to the past, where a lot of drive and pass can make a guy that you don't want to shoot facilitate instead.
Yeah, heavy D/K is still used to limit a players number of shots (similar to what Kyrus did with Winslow). Its not as powerful at limiting them as it was in DDS19, but is still an effective way to do that.
missed this from earlier... but I have my theory about Winslow.

Winslow was asked to drive/kick 39 times out of 40, and be in the paint 95% of the time. He also likely has an RA_Rate of < 10 (super low). He is starting his drive from the paint, probably going almost nowhere, and PB22 is realizing this is as good a look as he's going to get, so he says yolo and shoots. In the first preseason, he was shooting as much as you'd expect from a paint only 75 SCR guy not being instructed to kick it so much.

What I found was driving and kicking from the perimeter will get the desired result if you're really trying to cut back on the amount of shot attempts. Obviously the issue for Winslow there is I think he's < 30% shooting from mid-range and from 3. He is not going to be efficient. I unfortunately don't see him averaging the 5-6 assists I've been getting out him in 19 either. Maybe 4. That could certainly change once I've tinkered more with offensive sets, pace, and lineups, but was simply not seeing it in the tests.

I haven't yet put in his instructions because I want to find a happy medium where he's not utterly useless on offense, but also not going to be egregiously inefficient on any real volume. I could in theory hold him to like 3 FGA a game, but that's just not going to work for other reasons. The dream goal is for him to be as close to real life Draymond Green as possible but I don't even expect that. It's a pretty huge blow for someone I just gave a 5 year max contract to.

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