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DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

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emplep7
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DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by emplep7 »

Hey all,

There has been a lot of talk on the forums around some issues with DDS19 and in the background the admin team has been exploring the potential of upgrading to DDS22 to try to stay current every few years with our file.

DDS22 First Access was just released which means you can now purchase the game and start testing it out. We wanted to start this thread to keep track of any of the bugs/findings that come up during testing so that we can consolidate responses back to the Gary to see what changes can be made for the full release.

Please post here with anything you find (even the good things) and let us know if you have an interest in testing for the league.

Once we get more info on this engine, we will make a decision on the path forward with what we will be using moving forward.

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Potential Bugs





Key Findings
- Progression/Regression Slider Control (SUGGESTION FOR ADDITION)
- Game seems to have improved defensive sets (aka they actually work)

DDS19 Bugs to Confirm in 2022
- Coaching budget
- Player regression ratings drops
- Tiebreakers
- Inside scoring for guards
- Defensive assignments
- Not being able to change coach contracts after league start
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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by Jestor »

I have felt that in the past players were not declining enough and were being too productive for too long a period of time so I have turned up the decline in this version.

-Per Gary

This worries me. Trade values already tank around 30 as it is, and this is only going to increase that trend.

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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by Dennis »

Fully agree with Tim. Once 33/34 a player is basically trash/backup.
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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by GreenBear »

In an era where guys in the nba are still killing it in their mid to late 30s (Steph looks better than ever so far this year at age 34), that's a ridiculous comment by Gary. But not surprising in the least. He's too often pretty out of touch imo.

I always hated how age regression was so cookie cutter in these engines. Everyone declines the same. I always thought it would be more interesting (and realistic) if some guys regressed slower than others. But yeah, it sounds like trading a veteran is going to be harder than ever.

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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by Ramcus »

Dennis wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:15 pm Fully agree with Tim. Once 33/34 a player is basically trash/backup.
I wanna pose a question. Typically in the NBA, players don't last long into their 30's regardless. Although these players are effective usually up towards 33-35 years old. Generally speaking, these are the average NBA careers. Role Players, fringe bench players, although Basketball is governed by their superstars, it's the other majority that fades quickly with age.

With that in consideration, I do agree with MEM and BOS in that players already decline quickly consistently in these engines starting at 32. Would it be a possibility for players to have random declinations instead of a consistent -2 on each rating at 32, -3 at 33, -4 at 34, so on an so forth.
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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by Flaming Homer »

Jestor wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:50 pm I have felt that in the past players were not declining enough and were being too productive for too long a period of time so I have turned up the decline in this version.

-Per Gary

This worries me. Trade values already tank around 30 as it is, and this is only going to increase that trend.
Did he post that in the Wolverine forums? Have to contact him about that, crazy enough already.

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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by andrei »

Like others said, looks like Gary lives in his own world and never heard of many, many players who were/are still excellent well into their 30s. If anything the decline in his games is too rapid and he wants to speed it up even more? Crazy stuff
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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by KW »

Gary, Gary, Gary...

The ironic thing is that PB regresses players too fast while PF has been the one with the issue of players never regressing.

If everything about this engine checks out, what do we think about creating our own model for regression? We already have the workaround for players retiring stupid early, shouldn't be hard to do.

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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by Flaming Homer »

Gary says he changed the setting back now for the latest beta, will check it out.

The option to do it on our own sounds good but would need a good workflow for it. It is quite a bit DB work and too much manual changes have the risk of messing something up.

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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by Marcos_Beck »

What I trully wanted to see out of a DDS game was the ability for players during their 23-27 age seasons (just an example) to be able to improve some with training camps, mid season, or whatever. Not every player, obviously, but for example, we’ve seen time and time again in the NBA players adding a new skill over the course of their career, or late bloomers, or guys who took a much longer development time to reach their full potentials.

Nikola Vucevic was a Back to the basket, face up kind of center, who was always a great scorer. But during his 27th and 28th birthday seasons, he became a great playmaker as well, and developed a solid 3pt shot that had him peak at 40% from deep last season.

Zach LaVine took from his 18th to his 25th birthday in the league (that’s 7 seasons) to fulfill his true potentials as a scorer and shooter.

Derrick Rose suddenly became a reliable shooter from deep and modified his whole game to become an efficient bench scorer with great A/TO ratio.

Andre Drummond learned to shoot FTs during his 6th season and went from a 40% guy to a 60% consistent one.



That is never replicated in DDS. Players don’t acquire new skills or adjust their games during their career. They get better until year 3-4 and after that, that’s their game for the rest of their career. You see 22 year old guys who have already reached their ceiling and basically are in their prime at such a young age, because the game won’t allow them to develop any further after their 5th season, and they can’t work to improve any skills.

That and player regression past 32. Those are the things that annoys me the most.

I believe regression should be done a simple way, but the current rate is ridiculous. Going like 1 point at 32, 2 points at 33 and 34, 3 points at 35, 36 and 37, and 4 points after that... that’s fair game to me. I mean a 85 rated defender at 31 will be an 80 rated defender at 34. That’s still lockdown defense. All of a sudden, older players (30-32 ish) still carry trade value around the league.

Nowadays, a player loses 2 total points at his 32th birthday (per skill), 5 total points at his 33rd, 9 total points at his 34th, 13 total points at 35th and is done, basically. Nobody can contribute as a good starter at 36 or over, most won’t even last until 35 for example.

With a new regression system, a player would lose 1 point at 32, 3 at 33, 5 at 34 (where he currently is at 35 now), 8 at 35, 11 at 36, 14 at 37. Take a great playmaker like Lonzo, currently at 91 PAS / 88 HDL. He would be at 83 PAS / 80 HDL at age 35, which is still enough to be among the best playmakers in the league. At 37 years, he would be as good as he currently will be at 35.

Players would still be more than capable of performing at similar level during their 34th seasons and would start experimenting some decline when 35 and beyond.
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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by Stockton12 »

i might get it if it gos on sale $55 is a bit much ..i agree with most about the regression and the changes but is it worth it changing it and how often would you have to do it as people get older or is its set

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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by emplep7 »

There really just needs to be a setting that Commissioners can set/change to impact rating progression/regression. That allows us to set our leagues the way we want and not how someone feels regression should go. I would propose that to Gary.
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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by emplep7 »

Stockton12 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:14 am i might get it if it gos on sale $55 is a bit much ..i agree with most about the regression and the changes but is it worth it changing it and how often would you have to do it as people get older or is its set
It should only be $35 ($32 with the first access 10% discount) right now.
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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by Marcos_Beck »

I’m honestly not looking forward to buy yet another extremely flawed game and give Gary more money without seeing so many EASILY noticing improvements this game needs. It seems like he’s not even working to make his money anymore, it feels like the same game with one or two new stuff every year but the important things don’t get fixed.

Of course the improvement / regression system is extremely important, but the engine itself should have been fixed first and foremost. That’s the most important thing because I really feel like we can live with current regression system for example, but running passive D + 9 zone just to get beaten inside every single game shows defensive strats don’t work like planned. That literally breaks the game, and that’s only one of the engine’s problems. Seeing a guard like Fox score 40 every game after turning into a post oriented player, yet he couldn’t crack 20 a night as a perimeter oriented one, this literally breaks the game.

Defensive matchups, does anyone know if they trully work? And I’ve heard they reset every single day so if you have a game in the 2nd day of a sim, even if it’s not a double game sim, your defensive strats won’t work anyway because they reset after every day, not every game.

There is so much stuff to be fixed, I trully don’t want to give Gary any more money unless he really shows it’s worth it. I can’t code or anything like that but I’m willing to bet I could at least develop the architecture of a better simulator with a better engine and less ways to exploit it than he currently does have in DDS. Every game after DDS3 has been really bad IMO.
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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by bt »

I don't like giving money to what could essentially be a patch to another version. The fact that he's sticking to a yearly release cycle like the big games is stupid but I know he's running a business and all that. Still, a lot of problems with the older games could have been patched in but I remember talking to him about issues with DDS2/DDS3 early on when running the NLL and he said he was going to fix it then just upped and released a flawed DDS4.

In regards to the regression thing, I don't care if he wants to keep the same old shitty -2 per year system that he has but at least add in a very very simple randomiser during the off season or whenever it's calculated. Instead of having everyone regress at age 32, it would be so simple to have a quick "yes/no regress" dice roll just so it might skip an age. I'd prefer it to go to the next level and have it based on current age/skill/health/different decline rates but I'd absolute take even a simple 50/50 yes/no just to have some guys not regress until 33 or if they're lucky, 34 or 35.
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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by Flaming Homer »

Yeah, I'm already frustrated with how the first access goes. Waste of money how it seems.

The engine got even more post heavy, the regression is shit and he only arguments it is done to match the real life stats from the NBA. If your game sucks, who cares about what the NBA does.

At least be so flexible and make it adjustable for leagues like us. Like Ryan says, he wants to make money every year and he focus mostly on single player. And with every version the sim algorithm seems to be more and more weird.

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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

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bt wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:15 am I'd prefer it to go to the next level and have it based on current age/skill/health/different decline rates...
I was thinking the same thing. I think if a player is elite at a skill - for example mid range jumpers - there should be a high chance that that skill never declines. I'm thinking someone like David West. At the end of his career, he really could not contribute very much at all outside of knocking down 18-footers. Or if a player is an elite passer, his passing ability should stay high with little regression. But other skills like rebounding, shot blocking, driving, etc. could be checks with an Athleticism rating (why they have it in the college game but not pros is beyond me), injury log and age could determine if the rating declines or not.
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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by Jestor »

Flaming Homer wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:27 pm he focus mostly on single player.
Yep because that’s where the bread and butter is for small shop text sims. It’s when you get big enough you can do the EA and OOTP MT thing

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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by Flaming Homer »

Rizzo wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:57 pm
bt wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:15 am I'd prefer it to go to the next level and have it based on current age/skill/health/different decline rates...
I was thinking the same thing. I think if a player is elite at a skill - for example mid range jumpers - there should be a high chance that that skill never declines. I'm thinking someone like David West. At the end of his career, he really could not contribute very much at all outside of knocking down 18-footers. Or if a player is an elite passer, his passing ability should stay high with little regression. But other skills like rebounding, shot blocking, driving, etc. could be checks with an Athleticism rating (why they have it in the college game but not pros is beyond me), injury log and age could determine if the rating declines or not.
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Re: DDS22 Testing/Bug Thread

Post by Rizzo »

Oh man I wish I had the time and resources to create a basketball sim.
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