DDS22 Transition (PLEASE READ)

[bt]

Any chance of Gary doing a 50% group buy type thing? Get 20 licences at 50% off or something?

[Andrewu91]

Not sure how I feel about this.

Not sure if 22 better, but how can’t you feel good about leaving a broken engine behind?

Can you explain in your thoughts, why you think it's broken?

In my mind, there's an adjustment period. Many GM's like myself, Memphis, PHX, Pistons, have learned to adjust to this engine. Takes time, patience and effort though. Took me 1 whole season with building and trading, signings.

All I'm really seeing is GM's who used to be decent in the old engine, complaining about this one, because they have a hard time to adjust and can't win like they are used to.

More complaints = changes in this world

But when 22 needs an adjustment period, there are going to be more complaints. Except everyone will be out more $$$, just to see the old complaining rise again. Then what? What happens when this same thing happens once again in the future? Do we go back to dds3, or does the league slowly die?

We had 2 whole seasons to test dds19. And we were told it was good to go. Dds22 hasn't been officially out, besides testing mode so far. And we are switching already?

Seems like a panic move which could ultimately be the demise of the csl, as we know it.

Also, I want a refund for 19 or free 22. Because I just paid a whole $30. 15-20% of our GM's aren't the richest, and live paycheck to paycheck. Just trying to enjoy a fun activity. And yet, we are feeding a greedy Gary our money to barely make things better. While he smiles and promises changes, that never work properly, or at all.

That's all I'm gonna say in this topic. I'm against the move.

[Dennis]

You think the preference post and pass rating determining scoring ability is nice and only a thing of adjustment and you like a 60 scoring PG with 80 post being able to lead the league in scoring on really good efficiency? I agree that the ones with enough time available can adjust and just change their players the way needed, but it takes away so many other ways to build a team.

I think 95% of the gms in here would achieve the same with Zion and JJJ in this engine.

[Dennis]

Maybe I’m too wealthy (don’t think so) to think that 30€ aren’t the world. It’s like one less visit at McDonalds. However, if someone can’t afford, im always open to share or to buy a license for long term members that can’t afford it. Even for you, Andrew. Even though your character might be weird you are a valuable part of the league that we shouldn’t lose because of an engine change. So if anyone needs support in that regard, shoot me a message!

[andrei]

Ryan's suggestion to ask for a volume discount is a good one and I'll certainly chip in for a license for everyone.

Also, do we know that a PG with 60 rating can't lead the league in scoring in '22 version?

[Dennis]

Ryan's suggestion to ask for a volume discount is a good one and I'll certainly chip in for a license for everyone.

Also, do we know that a PG with 60 rating can't lead the league in scoring in '22 version?

I don’t know it, but I guess it’s tested and feedback provided to Gary. I was just mentioning one of the craziest things off. I could go on with other stuff though as well.

[mgtr81]

Highly unlikely I make the transition. I have bought a lot of WS games through the years and they provide no customer support, yet I get their spam e-mails continuously. One of the reasons, not the only one and not the main one, but one of the reasons I decided to close the GAH was their lack of customer support. I was able to get only one answer from Gary through Myles, who was very kind to help. But no further answers after that. That being said, I understand the admins decision and I hope it's a good one for the league. Good luck moving forward.

[cb4raptorscb4]

Ryan's suggestion to ask for a volume discount is a good one and I'll certainly chip in for a license for everyone.

Also, do we know that a PG with 60 rating can't lead the league in scoring in '22 version?

Agreed. I'm also willing to chip in for others. Does one purchase still get you 2 licenses?

[KW]

Along with the transition to the engine, are there going to be global ball action / floor range tweaks so that we don't run into the same issues we have now? Some of the current issues with our league stem from pass first guys simply having PASS% that are too low not necessarily an issue with the engine.

[Silogical]

The engine wont change so i doubt anything meaningful will change. Whatever of the PASS rating/ floor ranges fixes happen in 22 we couldve fixed in 19.

The hope would be for a very much improved FA system.

[thecoolestjedi]

Nice. Think 22 does a lot of things right even if I want to see even more improvements and a better navigation with its UI than 19 and previous titles had. If anyone needs a spare, DDSPB22 Key, I got one lying around for non-steam.

[AlexS]

This is exciting! I'm happy we will be able to use more of the in-game features to reduce the workload on the admin team. I watched a little bit of a developer youtube series on 22, and a cool feature that I'm excited for is the personality system. I rarely look at the player personality page on 19 and from what I saw on the video player personalities will be a big part in 22. I think this will add another dynamic for roster construction where the most talented teams aren't guaranteed to have the best records.

[OneNole]

Curious to see what the test yields. I feel like every version I have played had gotten worse dating back to tpb

[GreenBear]

I'm highly skeptical DDS22 will be much better of an engine, and that's purely based off this game's history. They're on their umpteenth iteration of the game, and yet there are dozens of inexcusable flaws with the game. Either Wolverine's QA team is incompetent or the bugs they find are largely ignored by the management team so that they can pump the new game out and move onto the next one (which is unfortunately very common in the gaming/app world).

In all likelihood, there are probably some nice positive changes, but just as many negative ones that will pop up that you don't even know to look and make no sense (like the aforementioned high PAS equating to higher usage, POST locations having a huge impact on a guard's usage, etc.).

I hope I'm wrong, and I've done zero research into the new game myself, so take my skepticism with a grain of salt. But I'd be a bit hesitant to move everyone to a new engine without thoroughly vetting it. Otherwise the league is going to be in the same situation a few seasons from now.

[GreenBear]

Maybe I’m too wealthy (don’t think so) to think that 30€ aren’t the world. It’s like one less visit at McDonalds.

You spend 30€ on one trip to McDonalds?! What the heck are you ordering?!

[GreenBear]

Most important though: Does DDS22 finally stop back-to-backs in the playoffs?!

[Dennis]

Maybe I’m too wealthy (don’t think so) to think that 30€ aren’t the world. It’s like one less visit at McDonalds.

You spend 30€ on one trip to McDonalds?! What the heck are you ordering?!

Hahaha, I was maybe a bit off with that comparison. To be honest, didn’t go there for quite some time so not sure what prices currently are. Just used to the Big Mac index for comparing prices. Hence came up with McDonald’s lol. I’m also just imagining what people think now how I look like hahahaha.

[wms02a]

Maybe I’m too wealthy (don’t think so) to think that 30€ aren’t the world. It’s like one less visit at McDonalds.

You spend 30€ on one trip to McDonalds?! What the heck are you ordering?!

Hahaha, I was maybe a bit off with that comparison. To be honest, didn’t go there for quite some time so not sure what prices currently are. Just used to the Big Mac index for comparing prices. Hence came up with McDonald’s lol. I’m also just imagining what people think now how I look like hahahaha.

According to the index:

A Big Mac costs €4.27 in the euro area and US$5.65 in the United States.

[Silogical]

Most important though: Does DDS22 finally stop back-to-backs in the playoffs?!

That would be nice. Another one would be to fix the FGI FGJ bugs.

[Flaming Homer]

We will ask Gary about a volume discount but I'm not very optimistic that will go anywhere.

I even understand that as an developer. With a retail price like that, you have to sell thousands of licenses to make money and 30 from CSL doesn't change much.

Also as mentioned, there are so many promotions during the year that we should wait for and buy then. Still plenty of time.

Here also my thought in reading the comments so far.

Regarding the engine:

Our testing showed they did improvements the scoring in the post, but still the engine seems to lean this way.
On the other side I think this complaints are a bit premature, I follow what Kyrus is doing with Houston and his success shows it is also possible to win with other strats. Not only sending everyone constantly down low.
The best 3pt shooting teams in the CSL are able to score on a good clip and sometime maybe just the defense has to be improved. That is the challenge to coach a team imo.

Also the importance of the pass rating seems to be lower now in our first tests. The league leaders seem rather the guys with high scoring rates. But keep in mind, test are run against AI GM's and are not changed for every single match up. CSL GM's proved all the time they can find ways around the "normal" behavior.
So, it is possible that a 60 scoring gut can lead the league? Possibly, didn't happen in our tests so far. But put him in the right situation and he maybe could.

Another ongoing complain is that you can't stop certain players with the available defense options. The test's show that the defense set's itself work. But it is not like in DDS3, you switch to zone and the outcome is totally predictable and the other teams just starts chucking 3's.
You can see that it works in the stats of a team over a season. The one or other opponent may even score more inside a team zoning in a single game. Seems more realistic to me.
Could it be a bit more impactful? I think so, but that is a thin line if you go with changes.

Overall we think the engine is better and worth switching.
But getting your hope up and expecting a 100% realistic or total different engine will disappoint you. The 22 version is clearly based on the 19 version and is not a step like DDS 3 -> 19.

Regrading the support and development of the game:

I can totally understand Manu. It is a bit disappointing to see a game with so many good basics only be changed in UI things instead of slowly improving the real game algorithm. The support got worse over the years as well.

But there are some improvements from 19 to 22 we think could be interesting for the the CSL.

Adding this player interviews in FA would give us the chance to bring FA back into the game.
Wolverine also came thru with our wish for making salaries editable which gives us much more flexibility there.

We hope we can also finally bring the owner ratings on the same level and would be able to use the in game coach hiring again, with the same budget for every team. Teams could spend their budget however they want on coaches or staff.

Player also can have now, like in the football version, certain personality types. This is nothing we can add with normal DB editing , it seems it is generated on the fly during season changes in saved in the game file. But it is an interesting feature.