League File | Standings | Schedule | League Leaders | Free Agents | Coaches | CSLO | D-League Standings | D-League Leaders | Player Potential Database

CSL StatStuff: League Needs: Scoring and Defense

Moderator: andrei

Post Reply
User avatar
andrei
Chairman of the Board
Posts: 6755
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:26 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Contact:

CSL StatStuff: League Needs: Scoring and Defense

Post by andrei »

Disclaimer: Below data is as of 12th March in game. All players are active players signed to CSL teams from HTML.
There are currently 420 active players with 87 PGs, 87 SGs, 84 SFs, 83 PFs and 79 Cs.

This is a series of articles that we'd like to write that answers two questions:

1) Where is the league overall in terms of ratings? What kind of players we have and what kind of players we are lacking i.e. do we have too many players with high Steals rating or too few? Perhaps this may help the draft department somehow in the years to come.
2) There are a lot of discussions, in particular during FA and Draft where GMs say: this player is average at scoring or average at rebounding. So what is average? With each category (Scoring, Defense etc) presented, we also show the average rating per category. Final article will show all averages for all ratings.

Scoring

Image
Kareem is happy. With the way CSL Centers are developing, he is highly likely to remain the greatest scorer of all time.

Image
Table shows i.e that there are 4 PGs in CSL with the Scoring rating between 80 and 89 which is 5% of the total PG population. At the bottom we can see the Average rating for all players and that position and the lower right corner shows the average rating for all players in the League.

One thing jumps out when we look at Scoring ratings: The lack of dominant scoring Centers in CSL. Only 4 CSL Cs (DMC, Big Al, B. Lopez, D-Howard) have scoring rating between 70 and 79 and not a single one crosses 80. David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem - where are you? Perhaps the Draft department are reluctant to develop scoring Cs due to the ''workaround'' that effectively stops big guys from dominating inside i.e. Zone. However, stats clearly show the disproportionate lack of scoring Cs in CSL.

On the other hand we can see that CSL is slowly becoming a guard dominating league. We lack true PGs (article on that coming later on) but we compensate by having our PGs score a lot of points. There are 13 players with scoring ratings of 80 and higher - 4 of them are PGs. In fact, 14% of all PGs have a scoring rating of 70 or higher. Compare that to only 5% of Cs and 9% of PFs.

Of the top 5 scorers, however, we got 3 SFs: KD at number 1, LBJ at 2 and Jabari Parker at 5 (With Westbrook at 3, Harden at 4 and Curry tied for 5 with Parker). Surprisingly, there are only 2 SGs in the top 10: Harden and George at 7. We can see that most of SGs are built for scoring with 44% of all SGs having a scoring rating of 60 or higher and the great majority, 82%, are above 50. Again, Cs only have 46% above 50 scoring rating.

Defense
Image
Pippen is happy. The league is in good hands at SF.

Image
Table shows i.e that there are 8 PGs in CSL with the Defense rating between 80 and 89 which is 9% of the total PG population. At the bottom we can see the Average rating for all players and that position and the lower right corner shows the average rating for all players in the League.

We got 37% of all SFs with a defensive rating of 70 or higher (31 players). If you have a defensive stopper on your team, its highly likely they are listed at SF or perhaps they play PF where 33% of players are about 70 (27 players). We can see, in contrast to scoring, defensive stoppers tend to play at big man. Looks like we have some impressive Defensive big man whose talents are wasted because of so few scoring big men? Having said that, however, Cs are not the greatest of defenders either - 29% or all Cs have a rating of 70 and up which places them 3rd among positions with PGs 4th at 26%.

One thing is for sure, we lack some quality defense at SG. Only 19 SGs are at 70 or higher which is a pretty poor 22%. In particular, SGs are really lacking in that 70-79 category with by far the least number of players there. Only 10 as opposed to SFs/PFs with 22 each. We are trying to compensate with a higher number in 60-69 category with 31 but even that is not enough. James Harden and Paul George sure wish it remains like this forever.

Next article: Blocks and Steals
Congrats to season 16 ASL champion SoulKey. For the Swarm!

User avatar
Dennis
CSL Champ 2028
Posts: 10352
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:19 am
Location: Düsseldorf
Contact:

Re: CSL StatStuff: League Needs: Scoring and Defense

Post by Dennis »

The reason is that we lowered the ratings overall since csl restarted. All my classes have been based on average ratings and those results show that I kept my classes right in the mix of what we had from the start. I still have the averages from season 1 saved somewhere, should be a nice comparison. And with so many teams on the same level, and only 3 teams rebuilding, I think the different draftteams did a great job.

I actually like it the way it is. Imagine we would have 40%+ players with 70+ ratings. Great defenders that have been in the league from the start would be pretty bad defender/below average (same goes for scoring) already. It's pretty tough to create balanced classes that meet the averages, especially, since we lowered the overall ratings. Class 1 proves it IMO. Even guys drafted late in the second round are way better than most players that have been around from the start. Imagine every class would look like that, no one would try to win games despite the top3 teams maybe. (That isn't meant to be a shot at the creators of the first class. But we have a lot season 1 guys thst became borderline all stars).

Concerning the C scoring.. I really hope Randle and Embiid can put it together in the future. They should become two very dominant big men. However, you are right. I should have added 1-2 scoring bigs more in my classes. A fact I didn't notice so far!
Boston Celtics Hall of Fame
PG G. Dragic [7] - Jersey Retired <> 2013 - 2015
PG R. Westbrook [0] - Jersey Retired <> 2016 - 2019

Fox - Johnson - Bridges - Hlinason - Whiteside
CSL Champions Image 2028

User avatar
KW
CSL Champ 2017
Posts: 10600
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:18 am
Location: CO
Contact:

Re: CSL StatStuff: League Needs: Scoring and Defense

Post by KW »

This league is running low on reliable, decently efficient 14-18ppg scorers that should be second/third options on playoff teams. A lot of CSL teams appear to have one or two guys taking most of the shots and scoring upwards of 20 a game, and propped up by a bunch of players that score 12ppg or less. Most NBA teams do not operate like that. It just seems that the "upper middle class" of scorers is vanishing.

Sun Scorched
CSL Champ 2016
Posts: 2189
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:53 pm
Contact:

Re: CSL StatStuff: League Needs: Scoring and Defense

Post by Sun Scorched »

A more general problem has been the increase in perimeter and jump shooting efficiency. When a guard can shoot 50%/40% from the field and from the arc, respectively, their more robust skillset and the fact that the ball typically flows through the guards more (usage%) means that a good guard will be more valuable than a good post player.

Obviously there are different schools of thought re: draft class construction, but the breakdown of the 2014 class was as follows, in terms of the total draft:

1 - Potential Franchise - 2 players
2 - Potential All-Star - 9 players
3 - Potential Starter - 16 players
4 - 6th Man / Role Player - 15 players
5 - Rotation Player - 19 players
6 - Roster Filler - 7 players
7 - Welcome to the D League - 5 players

Honestly, I think the league started off with incredible talent and I don't think a single draft has come close to replicating some of the players that most franchises consider All-League, Tier 1 Talent. In fact, we've barely matched adding Tier 2 talent. Weak draft classes hasn't helped the situation either.

Tier 1 Talent - Kevin Durant, LeBron James, Anthony Davis, Blake Griffin, Dwight Howard, DeMarcus Cousins, Kembda Walker, John Wall, Russell Westbrook, Derrick Rose, Otto Porter, Paul George, James Harden, Eric Bledsoe, Kyrie Irving, etc

Tier 2 Talent - Al Horford, Kenneth Faried, Greg Monrie, Andre Drummond, Chris Paul, Kawhi Leonard, Kevin Love, Jrue Holiday, Mike Conley, Goran Dragic, Ty Lawson, Damian Lillard, Kyle Lowry, Jeff Teague, etc

I mean honestly, how many draft picks in the last several years would you put in either category?

User avatar
Dennis
CSL Champ 2028
Posts: 10352
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:19 am
Location: Düsseldorf
Contact:

Re: CSL StatStuff: League Needs: Scoring and Defense

Post by Dennis »

Given we only have two classes with players already in year 3+, there aren't many in tier 1 yet. But for me, White, Wiggins, Jabari, Smart (when anyone ever will fix his overweight) and Exum are definitely tier 1. Tier 2 there are many other guys. From the first two drafts we would have to name Wright, Randle, Stauskas, Payne, Cotton, Tavares, Gordon and others. Just my opinion though.

Would we divide tier 1 in absolute superstars though, like PG, AD, LBJ, Harden, KD, we definitely didn't have a guy of their level joining the class. The only players being able to get onto their level would be Embiid IMO.
Boston Celtics Hall of Fame
PG G. Dragic [7] - Jersey Retired <> 2013 - 2015
PG R. Westbrook [0] - Jersey Retired <> 2016 - 2019

Fox - Johnson - Bridges - Hlinason - Whiteside
CSL Champions Image 2028

Sun Scorched
CSL Champ 2016
Posts: 2189
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:53 pm
Contact:

Re: CSL StatStuff: League Needs: Scoring and Defense

Post by Sun Scorched »

@ Dennis - that's interesting re: Embiid. Because my scouts suck, lol, I have no clue who else from any other draft class actually has star-level talent. I agree on Payne, he's essentially a young Conley.

lakeshowak7
CEO
Posts: 2018
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:24 am
Contact:

Re: CSL StatStuff: League Needs: Scoring and Defense

Post by lakeshowak7 »

Previous draft classes have definitely set our league back imo.

I agree with Biz's sentiments, however, the engine is clearly designed to produce favorable results when you surround a superstar with low usage players.

Definitely an alternative basketball world we sim in.

User avatar
blackice
Chairman of the Board
Posts: 4047
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:58 pm
Contact:

Re: CSL StatStuff: League Needs: Scoring and Defense

Post by blackice »

Great article and insight here. Low post centers are rare in our league but the value of an above average scorer like Jefferson or Howard can't be overlooked. Lots of great two way guards, really informative stuff here man.
Ball is Life.

User avatar
bt
CSL Champ 2020, 2023 & 2027
Posts: 5737
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:12 am
Contact:

Re: CSL StatStuff: League Needs: Scoring and Defense

Post by bt »

Would love to see an offensive center enter the league one day. Embiid ain't it according to my scouts. Does he even have over 80 potential?
sacramento kings

tremont waters | skylar mays | nigel johnson
matisse thybulle | justin james
robert franks | darius bazely | john butler
donta hall | xavier tillman | patrick williams
jon collins | jonathan isaac | norvel pelle | mfiondu kabengele


CSL CHAMPION Image 2020, 2023, 2027

User avatar
Marcos_Beck
CSL Champ 2019
Posts: 7688
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:15 am
Location: Brazil
Contact:

Re: CSL StatStuff: League Needs: Scoring and Defense

Post by Marcos_Beck »

Thanks for that, for real.
The reason for little number of scoring bigs is that NBA is changing. College basketball is changing as well, and although we're not here to copy player's from what they look like on college, we at least try to replicate the style of play if possible. Of course, some will come more talented than counterparts, some will come less, but although it's done with 1 or 2 players per class, we're not basically trying to recreate a player style of play.

And there havent been many great scoring Cs coming out of college with teams focusing on players who can defend the rim at all costs even if their post defense leaves a lot to be desired (who cares if nobody posts up in the NBA nowadays)..

I mean, we're just following real life trend here... You can see that lots of bigs are coming with low scoring, high blocking and average defense. And monster at the boards as well. That's what most teams want, and that's what most of the prospects we bring into the league has to offer in real life.

But I'll keep that in mind for future classes for sure. Maybe SHAQ 2.0 and a Harden / George stopper?
18-19 Chicago Bulls: CSL Champions
#1 D.Rose #11 J.Holiday #21 J.Butler #42 A.Horford #13 J.Noah

29-30 Philadelphia 76ers: CSL Champions
#1 L.Ball #15 M.Beasley #23 B.Bowen #21 M.Wagner #51 K.Towns

User avatar
GreenBear
CSL Champ 2021 & 2024
Posts: 6396
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:18 am
Location: Philly
Contact:

Re: CSL StatStuff: League Needs: Scoring and Defense

Post by GreenBear »

The initial draft was definitely really deep. From the breakdown given, that's 27 players that were created to be become starters. There are only 150 starters in the entire league, so at that rate, it would take less than 6 drafts to recycle every starter in the league. Now that's okay because there are going to be strong drafts and weak drafts. But if we had drafts like that every year, everyone would have a stacked roster in a few years.

I actually think the 2015 draft was pretty good too: Smart, Wiggins, Stauskas, Wright, Randle, Dekker, Wood, Harris, Adams, Staten, WCS to name a few (I'm sure I'm missing others). The past two drafts have been weak (outside of a few top prospects). Heck I had the #9 pick this past draft and there wasn't a single player I really liked still on the board, so I ended up trading down and then traded that player away completely to Chicago. But that's okay for the same reason it's okay to have some strong classes. It'll even itself out over time. We can't have incredible classes every year, and we can't have awful classes every year. As much as it pains me to say this (because I know Brett is trying to overhype this class for his own benefit), but this year's class looks like one of the stronger ones so far (although I'm nowhere near done scouting).

User avatar
andrei
Chairman of the Board
Posts: 6755
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:26 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Contact:

Re: CSL StatStuff: League Needs: Scoring and Defense

Post by andrei »

But does CSL have to follow the NBA from that perspective Marcos?
Congrats to season 16 ASL champion SoulKey. For the Swarm!

Chilikonkarne
CEO
Posts: 2787
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:58 pm
Location: Prague, CZ.
Contact:

Re: CSL StatStuff: League Needs: Scoring and Defense

Post by Chilikonkarne »

Cool article Andrei.

Agree with Doug, the first draft was HEAVY.
I count 28 players over 70 ratings in my Raptor++ and 47 of the players drafted this year are still in the league.
It can of course happen, but not every year as it wouldn't be realistic.

Second draft was balanced (12 players over 70) while the third was a disaster in term of talent (but necessary to offset the first draft) -> only 32 players under contract. Last one is still too early to judge but seems pretty weak as well.

Dennis probably didn't get too popular with his draft classes but I think it was necessary to keep the league at realistic level. We cannot expect a 1996 or 2003 IRL draft every year. That should come every decade.
Chilikonkarne Era (273-186 / 59%)

2014-2015 : 28-21 - (Lottery)
2015-2016 : 50-32 - (Conference Final)
2016-2017 : 35-47 - (Lottery)
2017-2018 : 54-28 - (Conference Final, Atlantic Division Champion)
2018-2019 : 49-33 - (2nd round)
2019-2020 : 57-25 - (2nd round, Atlantic Division Champion)

User avatar
bt
CSL Champ 2020, 2023 & 2027
Posts: 5737
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:12 am
Contact:

Re: CSL StatStuff: League Needs: Scoring and Defense

Post by bt »

andrei wrote:But does CSL have to follow the NBA from that perspective Marcos?
This.

We have a guard that excels at power forward when he shouldn't. Own identity and I hope we see some great centers soon. I certainly don't want this turning into the NBA. A lot of us don't necessarily like the modern product and prefer the olden day styles so it should cater to all.
sacramento kings

tremont waters | skylar mays | nigel johnson
matisse thybulle | justin james
robert franks | darius bazely | john butler
donta hall | xavier tillman | patrick williams
jon collins | jonathan isaac | norvel pelle | mfiondu kabengele


CSL CHAMPION Image 2020, 2023, 2027

User avatar
hardenwithnod
Chairman of the Board
Posts: 7570
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:26 pm
Contact:

Re: CSL StatStuff: League Needs: Scoring and Defense

Post by hardenwithnod »

Count me in the camp that thinks it's cool that we have player trends that are quite different from the real life NBA. This is a sim world after world, so I think it's cool that we have our own unique playstyle era.
Big changes are coming in D.C.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests