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Preseason || Sim 3

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Silogical
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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

Post by Silogical »

KW wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:22 am yeah that's kind of what I'm saying- if the touches are the same, it's something with how ball actions were converted. For high pass players, their ball actions needed to be higher for drive/pass% and pass% than they are. for players with low pass/high scr their ball actions for everything except pass need to be higher (i.e. more scoring opportunities).

I think we're kinda saying the same thing?
yeah we are saying the same thing. Ball actions probably couldve been set up better for the players especially low pass players.

High pass players in DDS3 needed very high PASS% in ball actions and vice versa for low pass players. Bigmen needed lower pass% than guards. The problem than becomes the caps, you would need different caps for different players. It would be very complicated to adjust this globally.

Just adjusting SCR rating + pass rating would be quite simple.

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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

Post by bt »

Got way off what the topic was. Stop living in the DDS3 past.
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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

Post by Silogical »

bt wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:57 am Got way off what the topic was. Stop living in the DDS3 past.
We are referring to the transition so its the DDS19 past.

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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

Post by emplep7 »

Silogical wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:58 am
I don't think the distribution of touches has changed THAT much from 3. High pass rating guys still got a lot of touches but knew to pass more with that high pass rating.

I think the big issue there is how the ball actions are currently calibrated with the pass and score ratings. If you're not trying to get high volume scoring from someone the game sees a point forward (anybody whose pass rating if higher than normal for his position, or the teammates on the floor with him), his ball actions have to be lower than they are right now.

I'd love to know how they determined actions behind the scenes in DDS3, I feel like it's probably quite similar and they had defaults behind the scenes, but just made it visible for us to change in the newer versions.
DDS3
Name PER USG year
KP 26.8 28.6 23
JSmith 26.2 23.3 22(not healthy in 23)
Skal 22.1 23.4 23

DDS19
Name PER USG year
KP 23.3 22.5 last year
JSmith 19.9 20.1 last year
Skal 19.6 23.5 last year

Those are huge differences, and the main reason is pass rating not transferring from 3 to 19 properly.

I dont agree with this as it comes down to the GM and adjusting ball actions and strats. AD and KP have essentially the same PAS rating and Rhox figured out how to get the best out of AD. I still remember how many people said AD was garbage after the transition only to now say he's the best player in the league again.

When you take the time to change around the ball actions and strats to account for a players strengths, you can still get similar production from DDS3.
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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

Post by GreenBear »

No transition between engines is going to be perfect. Some players are going to get a better, some are going to get worse. It's just the nature of the beast. I had one from each column, as Austin clearly benefitted from the transition, while Taylor suffered. It took a lot of instructions, some lineup shuffling and some creativity, but I got Taylor back to around what he was in DDS3 for me, despite having a PAS rating of 49 (which is pretty low for a guard). I don't think every player can be fixed completely, but a lot of them can be fixed to a decent degree.

I get the frustration of seeing some teams/players benefit more than others, but as someone that had zero to do with the transition, I think the transition team did a damn good job. Were they perfect? No, and hindsight is always going to be 20/20 for what else could have been done to make things better. But I know they put a ton of thankless work into it, and am pretty happy with the results so far.
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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

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What in the actual F does ball action mean??? :oops:
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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

Post by Dennis »

Ha, transition was good. Even though I still don’t get why the formula for the pass pref based on scr/pass rating wasn’t used the same way for all players (or all players of same position). It was somehow to expect though that Gary will change the rating system and the meaning of the ratings by 100%. Weird though that he made pass the new score haha. Let’s see how it goes in the coming engines.
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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

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GreenBear wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:48 pm No transition between engines is going to be perfect. Some players are going to get a better, some are going to get worse. It's just the nature of the beast. I had one from each column, as Austin clearly benefitted from the transition, while Taylor suffered. It took a lot of instructions, some lineup shuffling and some creativity, but I got Taylor back to around what he was in DDS3 for me, despite having a PAS rating of 49 (which is pretty low for a guard). I don't think every player can be fixed completely, but a lot of them can be fixed to a decent degree.

I get the frustration of seeing some teams/players benefit more than others, but as someone that had zero to do with the transition, I think the transition team did a damn good job. Were they perfect? No, and hindsight is always going to be 20/20 for what else could have been done to make things better. But I know they put a ton of thankless work into it, and am pretty happy with the results so far.
This

I don't see any team which got screwed and all teams are in the area where they were before. The importance of some player on a roster may have changed a bit, but that keeps it interesting for me. And as Doug says, you can't expect that from an engine change.
Boston is imo even better than before and Simmons for Miami is a total monster now, just have to fill some smaller holes around him.

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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

Post by Dennis »

No way we are better. Now you opened a can for which I can show you some numbers tomorrow lol. For that we even can focus on fox alone to show that we haven’t been a lucky team in the switch. But I honestly don’t care much about it as it was to expect there are winners in the change as well as some unlucky ones. Like said, the only thing I didn’t like was the pass pref handling that differed/ got handled differently per player.
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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

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PS: just read one comment.. I would have made Mathias Lessort a monster by using all 10s, lol.
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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

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emplep7 wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:04 pm


I dont agree with this as it comes down to the GM and adjusting ball actions and strats. AD and KP have essentially the same PAS rating and Rhox figured out how to get the best out of AD. I still remember how many people said AD was garbage after the transition only to now say he's the best player in the league again.

When you take the time to change around the ball actions and strats to account for a players strengths, you can still get similar production from DDS3.
AD is a top player because of his defense. He only scored 19 ppg last year, and his pass rating isnt essentially the same as KP its 18% higher.

I won 54 gams last year while trying to win every game and got swept in the playoffs. In DDS3 id win 55+ while resting everyone and i made it to the finals both years i was healthy. There is no question I got worse. That isnt the issue though its that the admins didnt do everything globally, they buffed and nerfed certain types of players and even said they made adjustments to individual players to get them to where they were in DDS3. So I think it wouldve just been logically to fix pass rating too.

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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

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Silogical wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:00 pm
emplep7 wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:04 pm


I dont agree with this as it comes down to the GM and adjusting ball actions and strats. AD and KP have essentially the same PAS rating and Rhox figured out how to get the best out of AD. I still remember how many people said AD was garbage after the transition only to now say he's the best player in the league again.

When you take the time to change around the ball actions and strats to account for a players strengths, you can still get similar production from DDS3.
AD is a top player because of his defense. He only scored 19 ppg last year, and his pass rating isnt essentially the same as KP its 18% higher.

I won 54 gams last year while trying to win every game and got swept in the playoffs. In DDS3 id win 55+ while resting everyone and i made it to the finals both years i was healthy. There is no question I got worse. That isnt the issue though its that the admins didnt do everything globally, they buffed and nerfed certain types of players and even said they made adjustments to individual players to get them to where they were in DDS3. So I think it wouldve just been logically to fix pass rating too.
This. While other types excelled. But transition done since a year. So it’s a done topic imo. Let’s just move all forward. Doug said it well.

In general Some lost and some won. The likelihood that the 60+ teams get worse was just higher then a 20 win team getting worse. So teams like Yours or mine only could have gotten worse while others didn’t have another way then the one up.

In the end the same GMs will be at the top no matter if the switch favoured them or not. Even if you go to other leagues the same GMs will be at the top. Look at the csfl for example.
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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

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As much as I've given you guys a bit of schtick for going on about it haha, I've done four full transitions in my time and yeah, they are only ever done globally across the board. Whatever the outcomes are the outcomes and that's it.

The ones I did can't compare though as the rating categories never really changed from TPB 03, TPB 05 and DDS to DDS2 so it's easier to test and apply a global change but with floor ranges and ball actions, etc, it wouldn't have been easy and I think they did a hell of a job.
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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

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Silogical wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:00 pm
emplep7 wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:04 pm


I dont agree with this as it comes down to the GM and adjusting ball actions and strats. AD and KP have essentially the same PAS rating and Rhox figured out how to get the best out of AD. I still remember how many people said AD was garbage after the transition only to now say he's the best player in the league again.

When you take the time to change around the ball actions and strats to account for a players strengths, you can still get similar production from DDS3.
AD is a top player because of his defense. He only scored 19 ppg last year, and his pass rating isnt essentially the same as KP its 18% higher.

I won 54 gams last year while trying to win every game and got swept in the playoffs. In DDS3 id win 55+ while resting everyone and i made it to the finals both years i was healthy. There is no question I got worse. That isnt the issue though its that the admins didnt do everything globally, they buffed and nerfed certain types of players and even said they made adjustments to individual players to get them to where they were in DDS3. So I think it wouldve just been logically to fix pass rating too.
I mean if you think its normal to rest players to 55+ wins then that's a problem with the old engine right there. It should be a fight to 50+ wins every year so I'd say the team came back to realistic expectations.

I think a lot was misunderstood about the PAS rating by us and the league (even after doing extensive league-wise preseason testing) where it wasn't clear at the time what that rating now meant in the new engine. You even provided insight into potential ratings transitions which were considered and the PAS rating wasn't in that information you provided due everyone's lack of true understanding of that value.

Now I'm not sure if you've ever led a league to this level or managed a transition at this level, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in thinking you aren't playing Monday Morning QB without ever actually playing QB. Would I say that the transition was perfect? Absolutely not. Are there things I would probably tinker with after having a full season under our belt? Most likely. But I don't think the transition led to the detriment of the league and most everyone has moved on and you can't make adjustments now so we are where we are and we continue progress forward and continue to learn.
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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

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bt wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:15 am As much as I've given you guys a bit of schtick for going on about it haha, I've done four full transitions in my time and yeah, they are only ever done globally across the board. Whatever the outcomes are the outcomes and that's it.

The ones I did can't compare though as the rating categories never really changed from TPB 03, TPB 05 and DDS to DDS2 so it's easier to test and apply a global change but with floor ranges and ball actions, etc, it wouldn't have been easy and I think they did a hell of a job.
Haha all good. But I’m more into data/findings while you often sound like a grand dad that tells stories from past wars/history when most things changed since then.

Unrelated to your comment. I love that some Vets are finally have the same opinion that pass rating as well as pass pref are way more powerful then scr. I was keep saying that since extended preseason testing. But somehow people just don’t believe us. so good to see that guys like silo, that are into data like us, have the same opinion.
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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

Post by bt »

I used to be into data when it came to the game and transitions. I only care for stocks now and just don't care for sim league data anymore or like I used to but since you claim you are, and amazing at it, we'll just believe you know best okay :)

Well, that and I and a lot of others here don't see the need to continually whine or undermine the people that do the work around here.
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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

Post by Dennis »

Yeah like said above, transition is done and no one really got screwed. It’s fair to talk about how the value of ratings or superstars changed though. So I don’t see a problem in silo bringing that up tbh. Also, as you can see above I also said that the transition is done and it worked fairly okay imo. Some things might could have been slightly adjusted, but I couldn’t have done it better than myles did. Dude is damn good when it comes to testing stuff (maybe only matched by kyrus haha).

What I don’t like though is, when someone puts words into your mouth. Where did I claim I’m the best? Also I don’t see it as undermining people when talking about the engine. If at all it’s criticism against Gary. Why would someone change the engine 100% to make it difficult for long running leagues to switch the engine? However, If we can’t talk about our findings regarding the new engine, what’s the fun then? Isn’t it to try to figure out how it works? It’s no really about GMing imo, as it is way different compared to the nba. It’s more about finding out what works best in our environment. I even see it as a favour for new joiner if someone like silo speaks so openly about his findings as they can learn a lot by it. He could also keep it for himself to abuse it.

Anyhow, I think we are all a lot into the league and just try to find the way to win. For me it wasn’t even about the transition. I just Second what silo said about the pass rating and how strong it became.
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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

Post by Dennis »

Ps: the Grandad thingy wasn’t mean to be negative. It was more about your experience since you are around for like decades haha. But I can see why it sounded like an attack. Sorry for that!
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Re: Preseason || Sim 3

Post by Silogical »

I agree with Dennis. Talking and discussing things should be seen as a positive not a negative. The league should be more transparent and open in general IMO. An open discussion about the transition wouldve led to a better transition.

Now that its over and done with doesnt mean we cant still discuss it.

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