Player Positions

[Silogical]

Positional Test:
Here we run a test on Mario Hezonja. Is Mario better suited for PF or SG and does his team perform better when he plays PF or SG. The lineups for the test are
PF: FVV/Delon Wright/Batum/Hezonja/Turner 6th Siakam.
SG: FVV/Hezonja/Batum/Siakam/Turner.
Hezonja and the core players will play a consistent 33-35 minutes/game. Wright played more in the PF lineup and SIakam played more in the SG lineup.
The game was simmed up to the all-star break and 2 sims on each side were thrown out due to serious injuries to Hezonja or a core player.
Current ratings were used. Shooting ratings were determined based on FG%/FT%/TS%/3% of previous seasons.

Early observations:
In the SG lineup hezonja is playing with the lower usage and overall worse player in Siakam.
In the PF lineup hezonja is playing with the higher usage and overall better player in Wright.

The results:
Points: PF Hezonja out-performed SG Hezonja by 1.95 pts/36. This shows the benefit of playing closer to the basket outweighs playing with a lower usage player in Siakam.

Rebounds: PF Hezonja out-performed SG Hezonja by 1.92 Reb/36. This is not surprising, the closer you are to the basket the more rebounds you will collect.

Assists: SG Hezonja out-performed PF Hezonja by 1.43 Ast/36. This is not surprising, Hezonja on the wing is going to get more touches and make more passes.

Steals: PF Hezonja out-performed SG Hezonja by .44 Stls/36. This is not surprising, Hezonja in the post is preying on players with wterrible handles.

Blocks: PF Hezonja out-performed SG Hezonja by .08 Blks/36. This is not surprising, the closer you are to the basket the more blocked shot opportunities you will have. It was only a .08 difference because you will have more opportunities but you will also be facing taller players making each blocked shot attempt tougher.

Turn-Overs: PF Hezonja out-performed SG Hezonja by 1.06 TOs/36. This is not surprising, In the post Hezonja will have fewer touches. He’ll also pass less and shoot more. Post players also generally have lower steals ratings than players on the perimeter.

Wins: SG Hezonja out-performed PF Hezonja by 1.8 Wins. This is not surprising, Despite guards padding stats in the post on the offensive end what does your team look like on the other end of the court with a guard in the post?

Conclusion: If you want to pad a guards stats or tank, play a guard in the post. If you want to actually win games bigger is better.

[emplep7]

Data is good to look at and I’m a very data driven person. With that said, without the actual shooting ratings there are parts of this that are inaccurate. What strats were used in this test? There are several factors when looking at wins (injuries to other teams, strats used (huge factor when playing a small player at PF), etc). The bottom line is we have seen first hand that a player like Hezonja can go against a very good PF and completely dominate them (while getting several blocks). This is completely unrealistic and gives a clear advantage for that team. Playing Damian Lillard at SF and PF in the playoffs and him doing well is completely unreleastic and would only be done by a GM if there was an advantage to it.

A sample of N=1 is great and I think there is very interesting and potentially useful data here, but the real examples we have actually seen in the last few years provide a clear picture to the advantage this can provide if used under certain provisions.

This game was developed before positionless basketball and shouldnt have to account for those types of things.

[Silogical]

Data is good to look at and I’m a very data driven person. With that said, without the actual shooting ratings there are parts of this that are inaccurate. What strats were used in this test? There are several factors when looking at wins (injuries to other teams, strats used (huge factor when playing a small player at PF), etc). The bottom line is we have seen first hand that a player like Hezonja can go against a very good PF and completely dominate them (while getting several blocks). This is completely unrealistic and gives a clear advantage for that team. Playing Damian Lillard at SF and PF in the playoffs and him doing well is completely unreleastic and would only be done by a GM if there was an advantage to it.

A sample of N=1 is great and I think there is very interesting and potentially useful data here, but the real examples we have actually seen in the last few years provide a clear picture to the advantage this can provide if used under certain provisions.

This game was developed before positionless basketball and shouldnt have to account for those types of things.

Changing the strats and changing the shooting ratings doesnt change much when it comes to how many games are won when comparing SG vs PF/C. SG always comes out ahead in wins. Im fine with preventing small players from playing in the post, but because of realism not because its an advantage.

Hezonja played like 2 games, and lillard/kyrie played like 8 minutes at SF 0 minutes at PF. There is no doubt moving players closer to the basket improves there individual stats, but at the detriment of the team. What we've seen so far was around 200 min between Exum/Hezonja/Lillard/Kyrie. My tests were 20,000+ minutes

[Rizzo]

Thanks for using my team as a test case. There’s no doubt that the engine is flawed when it comes to playing guards at the PF and C positions. With that said, why don’t you do a case study on how best to maximize the talent on my current roster so I can actually win games lol. I can use all the help I can get!

[Ocons]

Say what you guys want but this is my favorite type of article. One with absolutely no hidden agenda or ulterior motive. Just pure love for writing for the sake of entertainnment and contributing media to the league.

Nicely done.

[Cleasby]

Interesting take on the position thing. But we have seen guys stats boost. As Jon mentioned there is more to it that just playing a guy at a forward position. Unfortunately the game cannot cope with position-less basketball and it is unfair to expect guys to play sub matrix chasing when you cannot set proper defensive match ups. Which is something user you are missing from the analysis is opposition defensive metrics against herzonja.

Also I am sure the league tested the position issue a lot before they implemented the rule as they do this with all issues.

I am excited to see how teams do now they cannot bug the system as much next year in the playoffs.

[Silogical]

Interesting take on the position thing. But we have seen guys stats boost. As Jon mentioned there is more to it that just playing a guy at a forward position. Unfortunately the game cannot cope with position-less basketball and it is unfair to expect guys to play sub matrix chasing when you cannot set proper defensive match ups. Which is something user you are missing from the analysis is opposition defensive metrics against herzonja.

Also I am sure the league tested the position issue a lot before they implemented the rule as they do this with all issues.

I am excited to see how teams do now they cannot bug the system as much next year in the playoffs.

Based on the stats it doesnt matter if you cant figure out when/if a guard plays in the post. You dont want to match up small against small in the post let them go small you go big and youll win more games. Yes their guard will put up empty stats but who cares about empty stats. Some experienced GMs in the past said they want their guards light and post players heavy. These GMs were on to something. There is also another important factor. It is very easy to counter a guard in the post. Just run 9 zone itll force them to shoot/post and will take away their strength which is driving past bigger players.

This test was using just average strats. I wouldnt mind running the test again with a different approach.
PF hezonja using best strats and best counter strats for the other teams
SG hezonja using best strats and best counter strats for the other teams
If anyone is a small ball expert and wants to take up a challenge let me know what strats to use for PF hezonja lineup and what strats to use to counter SG Hezonja lineup.

EDIT I dont know why the playoffs are being used as an example for why small ball is good. I had dozier playing PF for the 1st 3 games against cle. His stats were not great and i went 1-2 I then put in a mediocre bigman in Len taking a lot of doziers PF minutes. I went 3-1 after that move. Against OKCs big lineup Dozier was a complete disaster. His best game resulted in a 19 point loss.

[Silogical]

Thanks for using my team as a test case. There’s no doubt that the engine is flawed when it comes to playing guards at the PF and C positions. With that said, why don’t you do a case study on how best to maximize the talent on my current roster so I can actually win games lol. I can use all the help I can get!

Step 1 Gather up your talent
Step 2 Trade them to the Heat. Talent now maximized.
Step 3 Win Games!

[Marcos_Beck]

Thanks for using my team as a test case. There’s no doubt that the engine is flawed when it comes to playing guards at the PF and C positions. With that said, why don’t you do a case study on how best to maximize the talent on my current roster so I can actually win games lol. I can use all the help I can get!

Step 1 Gather up your talent
Step 2 Trade them to the Heat. Talent now maximized.
Step 3 Win Games!

I thought you wanted picks! How wrong I was..

[drumr]

Using the Cleveland series is a bad example. As I've posted previously not only we're his stats pretty good with the exception of 2 games you went 3-1 after Butler was injured which I think had significantly more impact than inserting Len.

As to the positionless basketball...
Basicly if you're an experienced GM you know how how to use this to great effect in the playoffs where gameplanning is necessary. People wouldn't do it otherwise.

[Silogical]

As to the positionless basketball...
Basicly if you're an experienced GM you know how how to use this to great effect in the playoffs where gameplanning is necessary. People wouldn't do it otherwise.

Most of the Champions didnt do it, so what does that say about its effectiveness. I simmed nearly 1100 games and SG Hezonja came out 1.8 games better than PF Hezonja I think that says more. The counter strats were also low zone, high zone and it wouldve been even worse for PF Hezonja.

[GreenBear]

This is certainly interesting, but there are still a couple unknowns here that I'd be curious about.

1. Trying different guys on different teams, as opposed to just Hezonja. It might depend on just how dominant of a guard it is. Or it could depend on just how good of a driver/inside shooter the guard is. It could also depend on the make-up of the team. Would SG Harden still come out better than PF Harden?
2. Offensive set could come into play. I.e. the offensive set that gives the ball to your stars (I can't remember the set off the top of my head) vs. single post (the guard would have to be put at C here) vs. a standard set or ball movement. Obviously giving the ball to your dominant guard in the post could exacerbate the mismatch on offense and lead to more wins.

[Silogical]

This is certainly interesting, but there are still a couple unknowns here that I'd be curious about.

1. Trying different guys on different teams, as opposed to just Hezonja. It might depend on just how dominant of a guard it is. Or it could depend on just how good of a driver/inside shooter the guard is. It could also depend on the make-up of the team. Would SG Harden still come out better than PF Harden?
2. Offensive set could come into play. I.e. the offensive set that gives the ball to your stars (I can't remember the set off the top of my head) vs. single post (the guard would have to be put at C here) vs. a standard set or ball movement. Obviously giving the ball to your dominant guard in the post could exacerbate the mismatch on offense and lead to more wins.

I agree with all that. There are a lot of variables/possibilities. It would be very time xomsuming to test every possible combo. I tried to pick a player who i thought was a better fit at PF than SG. Hezonja is a big turnover prone SG who cant shoot. I thought for sure he'd be better at PF(stats wise he is but im more focused on wins). I probably shouldve went to the extreme with the test and found a very light offensive minded slasher who can draw a lot of fouls. Isaiah Taylor at Center wouldve really pushed this to the extreme. Ill probably try this again with Taylor at Center and at SG.

You know Taylors game what strats should be used to maximize your wins with Taylor at SG and what would maximize his wins at Center? Also what would you say your 8 man rotation would be for each?

[GreenBear]

Haha oh wow. Taylor has never played a minute in the front-court here (nor would he because of the unrealism to me given his size and big man ratings). My guess is that a lower pace with the offensive set that gives the ball to your higher scorers (still can't remember the name of it), but it's just a guess. As for my top 8 rotation, I would never run a rotation that shallow (even in the playoffs) for several reasons. But if you're set on a top 8 with Taylor at PF: McConnell / Beasley / Okaro / Taylor / Austin, with Whitehead (PG), Mitchell (SG/SF), and Jones (PF/C) off the bench. With Taylor at SG: McConnell / Taylor / Okaro / Austin / Collins, with Whitehead (PG), Beasley (SG/SF), and Jones off the bench.

That being said, I like the starting lineup with Taylor at SG better than Taylor at PF. I wonder if part of the reason the Nets did better with Hezonja at SG is because moving him to PF weakened the wing depth more than Hezonja strengthened PF.

[Silogical]

Outside of their top 6 brooklyn has on their roster Malachi/Patteway/RHJ/Poelt as the primary bench. I think both rosters are pretty even.

Really interested to see what a 160 lbs guy does at PF. I think its ISO offense you want. Its an 8 man rotation but with foul trouble and sub-out at 85 other players will play a bit.

ill probably go with something like
PF 3 Pace 6 DI 6 FCP 5 Zone
SG 4 pace 6 DI 5 FCP 5 Zone

PF Iso
SG Dribble Drive

Counter Strats
I wont hard counter PF Taylor with a high zone so ill just leave the strats to what they were at the start of last season. Most teams run stuff like 3773 or something similar.

Ill also prob run a few sims wiht taylor at C and Single Post.

[Marcos_Beck]

Please also try a defensive guy at PF and SG. I feel like defensively lighter, shorter guys have a huge advantage against bigger players

[Jestor]

Isolation = Higher SCR with more shot attempts

[Jestor]

Please also try a defensive guy at PF and SG. I feel like defensively lighter, shorter guys have a huge advantage against bigger players

Shorter/Lighter = higher DSR, but worse PA/SF, everything else being equal, so you can get away with it in the backcourt. In the frontcourt though, you generally want guys who are taller/heavier - especially at C