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DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

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How Many Pre-Season Sims should we do to test DDS19?

Keep the schedule: 5 sims, 10 days each
5
23%
Increase sims: 10 sims, 10 days each
13
59%
Lets go crazy: Pre-season forever!
3
14%
Other: Please explain in your post
1
5%
 
Total votes: 22

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emplep7
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DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by emplep7 »

Now that we have all seen just how different DDS19 is from DDS3, I want to re-open the idea of doing 10 pre-season sims to aide with experimenting and finding "bugs".

I originally wanted 10 for this reason because the versions are SOOOOO far apart, but please re-vote since the current schedule has only 2 more pre-season sims.

Speak now or forever hold you peace...
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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by KW »

10x10 at a *bare minimum*. I wouldn't be opposed to simming the entire season 15 days at a time though.

There is a lot to learn, and I believe there will need to be global changes at the end of it for multiple reasons

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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by Dennis »

I’m with kyrus here
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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by TheTwoWallaces »

That’s so long without “meaningful” basketball 😩😩😩
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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by KW »

TheTwoWallaces wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:14 pm That’s so long without “meaningful” basketball 😩😩😩
It's really meaningful because it means we are helping to avoid a broken system when it actually matters. It won't go over well if the admins have to do global changes to ratings midseason

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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by mgtr81 »

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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by cb4raptorscb4 »

I am fine with going longer, especially if it's daily sims.
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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by Rizzo »

I’m with Kyrus, but my vote was 10x10 to make it an official vote.
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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by Dylan »

I'm fine with going longer, but personally I'd prefer the sims to be for fewer than 10 days.

10 days gives us more data, I know, but you really only have significant control over one game at a time. So I may play 5 games in those 10 days, but I only can really control my defensive plan/matchups for one of them. So while it's good to see different offensive/defensive sets, I can't get much of an idea on how to use players individually with matchups and such.

I'm fine with whatever in the end. This is new for everyone so I understand the need for a longer test run.

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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by Flaming Homer »

I'm with Kyrus, having the whole season simmed with at least basic human strat's for every team, gives us a more telling statistic if some ratings should be adjusted.
Good work from Manu with the difference from DDS-DDS19 but if we only sim 2 month, it may not show the full picture.

Like Dylan I don't like to test my own strats in 5 or 10 game parts, but it should bring at least the right direction.
Voted for 10x10 ... but can be the full season.

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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by KW »

Flaming Homer wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:50 pm I'm with Kyrus, having the whole season simmed with at least basic human strat's for every team, gives us a more telling statistic if some ratings should be adjusted.
Good work from Manu with the difference from DDS-DDS19 but if we only sim 2 month, it may not show the full picture.

Like Dylan I don't like to test my own strats in 5 or 10 game parts, but it should bring at least the right direction.
Voted for 10x10 ... but can be the full season.
Yup, that is my thought process as well. Given the introduction to so many new ratings (ball actions, floor ranges, the split between ATB and corner threes, and the new interior scoring) and all new strategies, we need a good sample size to see how all of this works.

Personally, I'm already starting to see flaws in how SCR is clashing with ball actions, and believe that none of us fully understands how it is all supposed to work yet, without a much larger sample size of everyone putting in their own game plans and depth charts periodically. There's only so much we can gather from offline tests.

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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by drumr »

I think the admins should be allowed to sim the entire seasons, but we should only be allowed to see a few games of data at a time. I'm fine with the consensus of 10×10 though. Lineup data is valuable as well.

I just worry if we sim entire seasons that they can tell us the overall results but for competitive reasons we don't need to know what strategies are winning more often. Feels like it wouldn't be good for us.
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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by Flaming Homer »

That makes sense!
Having the whole season stats is most important for the admins.

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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by bt »

I'm with Dylan on the lesser days argument.

We need to determine the point of preseason here. If you're just trying to learn the game, go and play some solo seasons. You don't need the CSL preseason to do anything. CSL preseason is to check your players specifically and that to me lends itself heavily to lesser days otherwise I find it pointless.

I wrote in another post that this shouldn't be about finding bugs. You'll never find them in such a short span as anomalies can and will occur. They'll come over time and if it's to check if our stats match up, that's a whole different argument. I've converted a league before and you need to check both the generic changes within engines and then the specific if you want to try and match the players of the league to the new engine. The second part is really hard and involves a ton of test simming to do so and even then, like everyone has said, you're never going to get it right with 30 human GM's potentially changing strategies every game. We all know strategies have a massive impact on stats. You can inflate or deflate stats just with a simple change.

So maybe we just take it as it is. You apply any engine changes you can find (steals, blocks, shooting, etc) then the rest is just how it is. Some teams will flourish, some will fall and in 2 seasons time, we'll have all forgotten about it and it'll be the norm again.

Otherwise if you want to test to try and match it up as best as possible, it's going to take a whole world of work.
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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by emplep7 »

I was leaning this way anyway, but we will be extending the pre-season for an additional 5 sims. While I agree that the more we sim, the more data we will have I also think that we will start to find inaccurate data trends due to the power of the strats in this game and make changes that have longstanding negative effects. We want to make calculated adjustments following the pre-season without throwing the whole balance off of the rosters and we feel another 5 sims will give us that opportunity.

With that said, continue throwing the kitchen sink at the engine and continue speaking up with things that you have found. We really appreciate all of your guys feedback on this effort!
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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by mgtr81 »

Just one observation. We shouldn't sim past the first ratings update, as I don't think we want to know in preseason how players will develop. That would affect the trade market.
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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by Dennis »

mgtr81 wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:51 am Just one observation. We shouldn't sim past the first ratings update, as I don't think we want to know in preseason how players will develop. That would affect the trade market.
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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by KW »

mgtr81 wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:51 am Just one observation. We shouldn't sim past the first ratings update, as I don't think we want to know in preseason how players will develop. That would affect the trade market.
The first update usually doesn't do much, it's the second update where players get +10s that we probably shouldn't sim past

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Re: DDS19 Preseason Vote: Revisited

Post by mgtr81 »

KW wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:31 pm
mgtr81 wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:51 am Just one observation. We shouldn't sim past the first ratings update, as I don't think we want to know in preseason how players will develop. That would affect the trade market.
The first update usually doesn't do much, it's the second update where players get +10s that we probably shouldn't sim past
It does enough to predict how players will develop.
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